TITHING DEBATE (AFFIRMATIVE CROSS EXAMINATIONS TO NEGATIVE SIDE) Part 3

IMG_4244AFFIRMATIVE QUESTION 1:

Ms. Moderator Christine Marie Reluya Cajeta for my First cross-examination question:

In here I conclude based on Biblical historical accounts written in the scriptures, disclosed by scholars and historians, emphasizing the subject of this proposition about TITHES, said to be “was common apparently because most peoples counted in tens, based on ten fingers” in the past, I strongly have proven, that in passing various forms of government, GOD has mandated 10%.

In line with my opponent statement as above, he drag into this debate scholars and historians (plural) who he said, made a proposition about tithes and, according to them, it was common in the past to count in tens based on ten fingers.

My Q1 is;

Can he provide at least 3 names of scholars and historians with their educational background (i.e did they obtain Ph.D.? schools they went to, etc) and their works, i.e. the books they have written and in that book, quote an excerpt that they have stated the below phrase or at least have the same thought?

“it was common for most peoples to count in tens, based on ten fingers in the past”

Pls also indicate the title of the book, if its a book. Indicate also the page where it can be found. If it’s not found on the internet hence, a hard copy, pls take a photo and attached in the answer.

The purpose of the question is to verify the truthfulness of the claim that, really scholars and historians had disclosed what he said and, at least 3 of these scholars must collaborate or have the same conclusion to verify the claim.

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NEGATIVE ANSWER TO QUESTION 1:

The statement my opponent was looking for:

“it was common for most people to count in tens, based on ten fingers.”

can be found from “Evangelical Dictionary of Theology” – Entry for ‘Tithe, Tithing’ with

Bibliography Information supported by 3 references my opponent is demanding as the ff:

– Brian K. Morley (Ph.D., Claremont University) is professor of philosophy and apologetics at the Master’s College in Santa Clarita, California. He is the author of God in the Shadows: Evil in God’s World and has been a member of the Evangelical Theological Society, the Evangelical Philosophical Society, and the Society of Christian Philosophers.

– Elwell, Walter A. “Entry for ‘Tithe, Tithing'”. “Evangelical Dictionary of Theology”. . 1997.

– S. R. Driver, A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on Deuteronomy; D. L. Feinberg, ZPEB, 4:756-58; G. F. Hawthorne, NIDNTT, 3:851-55; M. Wischnitzer, Encyclopedia Judiaca, 15:1156-62.

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Highlights on what happened in between Q1 to Q2.

Affirmative inquire to clarify the source link and additional info as required in the question but negative side objected, in his own word he said;

Objection good moderator Christine Marie Reluya Cajeta, I already responded to the question rendered by my opponent to his QUESTION #1 with demand for its references.

What he is demanding now is inappropriate to interrogation part of this debate since he’s now questioning the credibility of the references provided.

I am now ready for the 2nd QUESTION.

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AFFIRMATIVE QUESTION 2:

Ms Moderator; Christine Marie Reluya Cajeta. Ok since my opponent does not want to provide what I ask for which would further validate his claim.

I would now proceed with the 2nd question:

Since he does not want to give links on where he based his conclusion, can I ask a confirmation whether he gets his conclusion from the site below?

https://www.studylight.org/dictionaries/bed/t/tithe-tithing.html

Answer only with Yes or No, but if No, pls provide the proper links.

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NEGATIVE ANSWER TO QUESTION 2:

Question #1 with demands for its references has been served already as to validate my claim proving I am not inventing my own stories.

I based my conclusion from the flow of my presentation and the statement which seems controversial to my opponent based from the references provided were just part of my conclusion and the doubt of its credibility has already been junked.

The references demanded in Question #1 was clearly posted already. It’s from “Bakers Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology”. by Dr. Brian K. Morley (Ph.D.) where he took it also from the works of Elwell, Walter A. (Ph.D.) from “Entry for ‘Tithe, Tithing”.

Elwell was educated at Wheaton College where he earned his B.A. and M.A. He was awarded his Ph.D. in 1970 from the University of Edinburgh after spending time at then attended the University of Chicago and University of Tübingen. He was a consultant for both the Evangelical Christian Publishers Association and the Evangelical Book Club.

Since he found already the link for the references he asked, It still would like to answer his question if I got it from “studylight . org”, my answer is NO. I took it from “biblestudytools . com/dictionaries.”

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AFFIRMATIVE QUESTION 3:

Ms. Moderator Christine Marie Reluya Cajeta Below is my revised #3 question:

In here I conclude based on Biblical historical accounts written in the scriptures, disclosed by scholars and historians, emphasizing the subject of this proposition about TITHES, said to be “was common apparently because most peoples counted in tens, based on ten fingers” in the past, I strongly have proven, that in passing various forms of government, GOD has mandated 10%.

In his above conclusion, he said God mandated 10%. One synonym of “mandate” is a command. Can he please quote verses in the bible where God mandated or commanded to give 10%? Pls. quote only those verses that God mandated or commanded or has a word “command” on it and has a word “tithe” or 10% or “a tenth” on it.

No need to explain. Just give verses.

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NEGATIVE ANSWER TO QUESTION 3:

In my concluding part, I never said, “God mandated 10%” only but I said,

“In here I conclude based on Biblical historical accounts written in the scriptures, disclosed by scholars and historians, emphasizing the subject of this proposition about TITHES, said to be “was common apparently because most peoples counted in tens, based on ten fingers” in the past, I strongly have proven, that in passing various forms of government, GOD has mandated 10%.”

I strongly had proven, that in PASSING VARIOUS FORMS OF GOVERNMENT, GOD has mandated 10%.

1. Theocracy – It was in this form of government “God rules” the early people of God were bound to, where the word “tax” wasn’t yet mentioned but equivalent to tithes and offering in the latter period.

“One-tenth of the produce of the land, whether grain from the fields or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord and must be set apart to him as holy.” Leviticus 27:30

“Honor the Lord with your wealth and with the best part of everything you produce.” Proverbs 3:9

2. Roman Government (Monarchy to Representation)

“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are CAREFUL TO TITHE even the tiniest income from your herb gardens, but you ignore the more important aspects of the law—justice, mercy, and faith. YOU SHOULD TITHE, YES, but do not neglect the more important things.” Matthew 23:23 (NLT)

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AFFIRMATIVE QUESTION 4:

Ms. Moderator Christine Marie Reluya Cajeta

My Q4:

He quoted the verse, Matt 23:23 as his reference when he said; “God mandated 10%” but, the verse did not say anything on to whom shall it be given but it says aspect of the law.

Since it came from God, not from him. Did God said anything in the bible about to WHOM shall it be given in the aspect of the law?

Answer with Yes or No first. if Yes, quote the supporting verse as asked but, pls quote only verses that answer the question. Must have a word “10% or tithe on the supporting verse. No need to explain.

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NEGATIVE ANSWER TO QUESTION 4:

Matt. 23:23 is a record of Matthew to how JESUS responded CLEARLY to the Pharisees, and the context never said it says only aspect of the law BUT emphasizing the manner and attitude of giving TITHES as can be understood properly by its context!

“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are CAREFUL TO TITHE even the tiniest income from your herb gardens, but you ignore the more important aspects of the law—justice, mercy, and faith.

YOU SHOULD TITHE, YES, but do not neglect the more important things.” Matthew 23:23 (NLT)

The last part of the text clearly justifies its context, so to answer his question #4, I will just repost again the verse he’s asking as to respond his question where the word TITHE is mentioned.

“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are CAREFUL TO TITHE even the tiniest income from your herb gardens, but you ignore the more important aspects of the law—justice, mercy, and faith. YOU SHOULD TITHE, YES, but do not neglect the more important things.” Matthew 23:23 (NLT)

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Highlights on what happened in between Q4 to Q5.

Affirmative objected to the negative side answer, according to affirmative, his answer did not satisfy the question as he was not asking about Matt 23:23 rather, he asked whether God said anything in the bible about to WHOM shall it be given in the aspect of the law not specifically about Matt 23:23, affirmative pointed out that Matt 23:23 in itself did not say anything on to whom the Pharisee will give their tithe.

Moderator instructed the negative side to revise the answer so as to direct the question properly but the negative sides refuse, violating rule number 7 of the debate which states;

Debaters are NOT allowed to Argue with each other and to the Moderators decision. The Debaters were OBLIGE to follow INSTRUCTION from The Moderator. The Moderator has the power to impose +1 in every violation of this particular rule or NO RECORD OF COMPLIANCE from the Debaters.

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AFFIRMATIVE QUESTION 5:

An excerpt of his presentation says;

Biblical history recounted the order and divulging the nature of TITHING on definite time it was implemented that should not to be understood as fastened or affixed law that can’t be changed prior to government system it belonged, BUT God mandated it in the heart of its purpose to provide the needs of his house and the people whom he had chosen as his servants that he separated from the “world” as we now know the “unbelievers” of the one God of Israel, that even to the present times it remains.

He mentioned this phrase”

“BUT God mandated it (the 10%) in the heart of its purpose to provide the needs of his house and the people whom he had chosen”

My Q5 is;

Who are these people to whom he said God mandated the 10% to provide for their needs?

Answer with a verse or verses only stating on who are these people that God mandated the 10% to provide for their needs. The verses must contain the subject of the question which are.

1.) Who are these people?

2.) The word 10% or tithe specifically since the subject at hand is 10%.

Ms. Moderator, I would like to request him to be categorical in his answer. I ask only to answer in a verse or verses. No explanation, just answer in verses satisfying the subject of the question as above and that’s it.

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NEGATIVE ANSWER TO QUESTION 5:

Categorically imperative to provisional sustainability as a double-edged sword. So, to answer appropriately my opponent’s question #5 based on the context of my presentation as I said,

“Biblical history recounted the order and divulging the nature of TITHING on definite time it was implemented that should not to be understood as fastened or affixed law that can’t be changed prior to government system it belonged,…”

– The Bible first mentions tithing when Abraham gives tithes to Melchizedek, a priesthood that predates even the patriarchs. – Genesis 14:18-20.

– During the time of Moses, Isaac, Jacob: Leviticus 27:30: Numbers 18:20-24; Deuteronomy 14:27; Hebrews 7:1-10.

BUT God mandated it in the heart of its purpose to provide the needs of his house and the people whom he had chosen as his servants that he separated from the “world” as we now know the “unbelievers” of the one God of Israel, that even to the present times it remains.”

– Providing the needs of the house of God and its servants through a decree, stature or ordinance: Malachi 3:6:10

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AFFIRMATIVE QUESTION 6:

Ms. Moderator Christine Marie Reluya Cajeta and to my beloved opponent Carl Cortez

For My Q6.

Below is an excerpt from his presentation.

The system how the TITHE was implemented including the terminology used differed as time progressed but the mandate to TITHE in serving its main purpose of providing the needs of God’s house including its maintenance and beautification remains, much more in providing the needs of his servants who worked for him full time in the ministry.

THE CHURCH IS THE HOUSE OF GOD, AND SERVANTS OF GOD WHO WORKED IN THE CHURCH FULL TIME PREACHING THE GOSPEL SHALL LIVE BY THE GOSPEL, HAVE THE AUTHORITY AND RIGHTS FOR IT. 1 Cor. 9:14; 2 Thess. 3:6-10

He mentioned the phrases:

1.) Tithe provide the needs of his servant who worked for him full time in the ministry.

2.) Servants of God who work full time in the church shall live by the Gospel

My question is:

Is living by the Gospel the same as living by the 10% or tithe?

Answer with YES and NO only. No explanation.

Ms Moderator, Kindly ask him to be guided with the rules as attached when he answer.

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NEGATIVE ANSWER TO QUESTION 6:

YES and NO!

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AFFIRMATIVE QUESTION 7:

Ms Moderator Christine Marie Reluya Cajeta for my 7th Cross examination question.

Below is from his presentation.

THE CHURCH IS THE HOUSE OF GOD, AND SERVANTS OF GOD WHO WORKED IN THE CHURCH FULL TIME PREACHING THE GOSPEL SHALL LIVE BY THE GOSPEL, HAVE THE AUTHORITY AND RIGHTS FOR IT. 1 Cor. 9:14; 2 Thess. 3:6-10

He quoted verse 2 Thess. 3:6-10 which read:

“In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching you received from us. For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate. For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”

In particular with the verse he quoted, part of the verse tells on what apostles had done with their support.

And I quote;

“We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate”

My Q7 is;

Do you imitate them (the apostles) as your model in particular to what they have done on their right for help or support?

Answer with Yes or No only.

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NEGATIVE ANSWER TO QUESTION 7:

Partly YES or Party NO!

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AFFIRMATIVE QUESTION 8:

For my Q8 Ms Moderator Christine Marie Reluya Cajeta

Below is part of his presentation:

Legitimate religious institutions today or the Church with Juridical personality under the LAW of the government, given the privilege to impose and mandate its constituents to obey their by-LAWS created especially as to progress their goals even their ideals and to sustain their economics needs mandating financial obligations among its members.

He mentioned this “given the privilege to impose and mandate its constituents to obey their BY-LAWS”

My Q8 is;

Can he provide a proof whether his legitimate non- profit religious institution says as he claims in their by-laws that according to the claim, their by-laws IMPOSE AND MANDATE its constituents to obey it in particular to giving the 10% since the topic is about the 10%?

Kindly attached here a screen shot of the BY-LAWS showing the claim.

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NEGATIVE ANSWER TO QUESTION 8:

Example of the by-laws (not mentioning an organization for any legal protection issues) as exercising their rights to the privilege being mandated by the government.

Chapter 9 of their Organization’s By-Laws

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Highlight on what happened in between Q8 to Q9.

Affirmative objected with the negative answer as the one given is about the life of Howard H. Hunter and has nothing to do with the question. The question particularly ask for a proof in BY-laws which says IMPOSE and MANDATE.

Moderator says that, if affirmative think that it is not By-laws, he can refute during rebuttal stage.

Affirmative conform with the Moderator decision.

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AFFIRMATIVE QUESTION 9:

Ms. Moderator Christine Marie Reluya Cajeta for my Q9:

An excerpt of his presentation is below:

WHO THEN ARE YOU TO QUESTION THEIR PRIVILEGE AS MANDATED BY THE GOVERNING AUTHORITIES PAUL CLEARLY HAVE SAID ARE ESTABLISHED BY GOD? IF THEY’LL AMEND AND USE THE ORDINANCE OF MALACHI 3:10 MANDATING ITS MEMBERS TO GIVE THEIR TITHES FOR THE CHURCH, WOULD THEN THAT A VIOLATION? NO!

He mentioned the phrase “ IF THEY’LL AMEND AND USE THE ORDINANCE OF MALACHI 3:10”

One synonym of “amend” is “change”, alter or revise.

My question Q9 is;

The government authorities who are simply men as you claimed to have the right to amend and use the ordinance of Mal 3:10- a verse which was spoken by God himself, what then did they amend in particular to Mal 3:10?

Pls specify the changes or amendment they have done on this verse.

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NEGATIVE ANSWER TO QUESTION 9:

THE GOVERNMENT HAS NO RIGHT TO AMEND ANY ORGANIZATION’S BY-LAWS BUT THE ORGANIZATION ITSELF THROUGH ITS BOARD OF DIRECTORS OR BOARD OF TRUSTEES.

Amendment to particular changes of the organization’s policies, rules, structures, decrees, ordinances, statutes or names shall be lobbied by one of the board members and shall bring it to the floor where the chairman of the board shall preside over it. After deliberations and the motion to amend has been accepted by the majority of the board, the chairman shall then divide the house for votation. If the majority of the board members (or 70%) voted for it, then the amendment shall take place followed by drafting the final resolution to be signed by BOD/BOT members including the chairman.

The amended policy, rules, ordinance, decree or statues shall then MANDATED to all the members of the organization. This can also be applied to religious organizations or legitimate church community as mandated by the government to exercise their privilege for it.

Malachi 3:7-10 categorically mentioned TITHE law as a decree, ordinance or statute which are legal terms used concerning FRAMEWORK laws that can be AMENDED. Malachi 3:7 never mentioned TITHE as commandments that refer to the commandments of God or the Mosaic/Sinaitic Law or the of Moses which were the 10 commandments considered as FASTENED or AFFIXED laws.

If TITHE shall be amended by any religious organization prior to its present needs, so, therefore, it is binding connecting it to its very purpose part of its importance to organizations financial needs and obligations. To implement the binding amended law to its constituents, then that becomes the organization MANDATE the government of the land honors and protect.

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AFFIRMATIVE QUESTION 10:

Ms. Moderator Christine Marie Reluya Cajeta and to Carl Cortez

My Q10

THE CHURCH IS THE HOUSE OF GOD, AND SERVANTS OF GOD WHO WORKED IN THE CHURCH FULL TIME PREACHING THE GOSPEL SHALL LIVE BY THE GOSPEL, HAVE THE AUTHORITY AND RIGHTS FOR IT. 1 Cor. 9:14; 2 Thess. 3:6-10

He quoted the verse 1 Cor 9:14 which read:

“Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.” I Corinthians‬ ‭9:14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

My Q10 is;

In the verse above, we read that those who preach the gospel have the commandment to live from the gospel.

Did the verse mentioned whether the constituents who do not preach has also the commandment to give 10% of their income so that the preacher may live from the gospel?

Answer with Yes or No first, then explain your answer. I’m being specific on the verse alone.

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NEGATIVE ANSWER TO QUESTION 10:

To ANSWER question #10, there should be things at FIRST needs to be clarified and be addressed clearly according to the context of what Paul has said in 1 Cor. 9:14.

1. 1 Cor. 9:14 NEVER MENTIONED A COMMANDMENT OF TITHE OR 10% FOR TITHE IS NOT A COMMANDMENT BUT A DECREE, ORDINANCE OR STATUTES WHICH IS SUBJECT TO AMENDMENT as mentioned in Mal. 3:7-10.

2. Paul addressed 1 Cor. 9:14 THOSE WHO PREACH THE GOSPEL, not the constituents, are those SHOULD LIVE FROM or OF the GOSPEL.

So did 1 Cor. 9:14 mentioned whether the constituents who do not preach has also the commandment to give 10% of their income so that the preacher may live from the gospel?

The ANSWER is definitely NO, for the above-stated reasons, the question isn’t in the context of what Paul has said.

The ministry of the APOSTLES were Paul belonged aren’t the same with the ministry of PASTORS in the present times, so, therefore, decree, ordinance or statutes were the appropriate terms specifically were used concerning TITHES as part of the mandate THE CHURCH which IS THE HOUSE OF GOD, AND SERVANTS OF GOD WHO WORKED IN THE CHURCH FULL TIME PREACHING THE GOSPEL SHALL LIVE BY THE GOSPEL, HAVE THE AUTHORITY AND RIGHTS FOR IT.

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AFFIRMATIVE QUESTION 11:

Ms. Moderator Christine Marie Reluya Cajeta for my Q11.

Below is from his presentation:

Legitimate religious institutions today or the Church with Juridical personality under the LAW of the government, given the privilege to impose and mandate its constituents to obey their by-LAWS created especially as to progress their goals even their ideals and to sustain their economics needs mandating financial obligations among its members.

In the above statement, them as legitimate religious institutions, he said has the privilege to IMPOSE and MANDATE its constituents to obey their by-LAWS. Since the topic is about the 10%, he must be referring to that part of By-Laws that mandate and impose its constituents to give their 10% of income.

My question is:

Do your legitimate religious institutions BY-LAWS as submitted to SEC really says as you claimed that it IMPOSES and MANDATE its constituents to give 10% of their income?

If YES, are you willing to show us the proof of your official BY-LAWS submitted to SEC to prove that it says as you claimed? You include it in your presentation anyway, therefore, can be subject for cross-examination.

I’m referring to their BY-LAWS as submitted to the SEC, I’m being specific this time. He must be referring to this since he claimed to be legitimate, meaning, they must have filed their BY-LAWS at SEC and must have a copy of this, therefore, if he is willing, he can show proof to confirm that his claim is not a bluff.

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NEGATIVE ANSWER TO QUESTION 11:

Legitimate religious institutions, of course, are registered groups in the Securities Commission and automatically been given the privilege to exercise their rules, ordinance/s, statutes or decrees be implemented or be regulated or be imposed among themselves part of the organization they crafted in their By-Laws. That is stated in its Certificate of Registration given by SEC.

Any members who won’t agree to whatever has been bound in their By-Laws even their Articles of Faith as what had been agreed and accepted by the majority of its members has the right to withdraw their membership.

Imposing the agreed rules, ordinance/s, decree/s, statutes to its constituents including the board members are not to be questioned for this is normal as what has been called in government as IRR or Implementing Rules and Regulations. This includes not only the financial obligations to sustain the needs of the institutions such as the paying TITHES, but the entire agreed rules in the By-Laws.

MY ANSWER TO QUESTION #12 ( Negative thought that Affirmative question 11 contains 2 questions but, moderator ruled it to be still Q11 since it was a Yes or No question and the other requirement was a condition if the negative answer Yes)

If YES, are you willing to show us the proof of your official BY-LAWS submitted to SEC to prove that it says as you claimed? You include it in your presentation anyway therefore, can be subject for cross-examination.

I’m referring to their BY-LAWS as submitted to SEC, I’m being specific this time. He must be referring to this since he claimed to be legitimate, meaning, they must have filed their BY-LAWS at SEC and must have a copy of this therefore, if he is willing, he can show proof to confirm that his claim is not a bluff.

The proof of UPCPI By-Laws as including the paying TITHE obligations are visibly been implemented and taught by among constituents.

1) All its ministers are required to pay their monthly ministerial tithes of which failure to comply of the said mandate is subject to sanctions of the violations, same as 2) the local church’s members requirements.

To have a copy of the pertinent document of UPCPI By-Laws can be requested in UPCPI headquarters stating in the letter its legal purpose especially to non-members.

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AFFIRMATIVE QUESTION 12:

Ms. Moderator Christine Marie Reluya Cajeta

For My Q12

Legitimate religious institutions today or the Church with Juridical personality under the LAW of the government, given the privilege to impose and mandate its constituents to obey their by-LAWS created especially as to progress their goals even their ideals and to sustain their economics needs mandating financial obligations among its members.

He mentioned a Legitimate religious institution, I believe a religious institution is a non-profit corporation.

My question is since he used the word impose and mandates where impose means force. Is it allowed or even legal for a non-profit corporation to FORCE its constituents to give 10% of their income?

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NEGATIVE ANSWER TO QUESTION 12:

By-Laws are binding legal rules, decrees, ordinance, statutes created by its Board of Trustees to be imposed or be implemented to its Members. Tithe rule imposed by the board members (board of trustees for NGO) as justified part of the rules, decree, ordinance or statutes backed up with approved resolutions, are executory and should be mandated to all its constituents as to serve their purpose of crafting such rules as part of the By-Laws, and part of the privilege of the religious institution prior to its Juridical personality the government granted upon them.

Tithe obligation if being imposed is legal and binding for it has its attached agreed resolution signed by all the members of the board and notarized by an attorney.

Tithe obligation isn’t a form of business that earns a profit for it’s not from a form of product or services rendered, but rather,considered same as donations, paid-up (butaw) or pledges, or charitable funds contributed by its members.

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AFFIRMATIVE QUESTION 13:

Ms Moderator Christine Marie Reluya Cajeta for my Q13.

On the same part of his presentation below:

Legitimate religious institutions today or the Church with Juridical personality under the LAW of the government, given the privilege to impose and mandate its constituents to obey their by-LAWS created especially as to progress their goals even their ideals and to sustain their economics needs mandating financial obligations among its members.

Since he mentioned Legitimate religious institution and I believe, these are a public non-profit corporation.

My question is, since the religious institution your with is a public non-profit corporation. Documents like UPCI manuals where policies and by-laws are written, are you sure that these documents even the draft of it (unofficial) need to be requested formally because these are not available for public view?

You may answer in Yes or No only.

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NEGATIVE ANSWER TO QUESTION 13:

YES!

(Clarifications)

UPCPI is not a PUBLIC non-profit organization. This religious group with a legal JURIDICAL PERSONALITY is not owned by the PUBLIC but solely for its organization comprised by its members.

All legitimate organizations with legal personality have its own governance, civic non-profit groups, private sectors independent of the government and other legitimate groups.

They function and served their own purpose and goals independently from others and have theirs rights not to share their private documents to non-members.

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AFFIRMATIVE QUESTION 14:

Ms Moderator Christine Marie Reluya Cajeta

For my Q14

Below is an excerpt of his presentation.

“Giving a portion of one’s profit or the spoils of war was known in the ancient world from Greece to China. Gifts were made as religious offerings, or given to political authority as tribute or tax. Religious and political uses often combined since it was common to associate earthly and divine authority. Donation of a tenth portion, or tithe, was common apparently because most peoples counted in tens, based on ten fingers.”

He mentioned that Donation of the tenth portion was common in the ancient world- before Moses. Common is when at least 2 or more person had done it. And, common in a sense that, the recipient of it was not only one person so that it was done also in other places as he claimed.

As far as the bible is concern, I read only that Abraham tithed and Jacob vowed to give a tenth but no record that it was fulfilled in his lifetime. Therefore, biblically it was only Abraham who actually tithed to a priest who was described to have no beginning nor end of life but, he claimed it was common apparently. So, there could be another person at that time who was also like Melchizedek- no beginning nor end of life to whom like Abraham, people give also 10%.

My question is, can you name any other person in the bible and/or in ancient time who was like Melchizedek – no beginning nor end of life so that it was common for people to give 10% and or tribute to the likes of Melchizedek?

List them and their location during that time, indicate your source link.

Example:

Achilles- A priest in Greece who described also like Melchizedek- without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.” Hebrews‬ ‭7:3‬. source: http://www.greece.com

Zhang – A priest in China who described also like Melchizedek- without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.” Hebrews‬ ‭7:3‬. source: http://www.china.com

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NEGATIVE ANSWER TO QUESTION 14

The reference I quoted was not mine words but from the research of credible authors Brian K. Morley, Ph.D. and Walter A. Elwell, PhD., published and been part and entry of Tithe, Tithing subject in Evangelical Dictionary of Theology as academic material.

It was them who confirmed and wrote that “Giving a portion of one’s profit or the spoils of war was known in the ancient world from Greece to China. Gifts were made as religious offerings, or given to a political authority as tribute or tax. Religious and political uses often combined since it was common to associate earthly and divine authority. Donation of a tenth portion, or tithe, was common apparently because most peoples counted in tens, based on ten fingers.”, NOT ME, which I also believe.

(Clarifications and Objections)

The rest statements of my opponent good moderator Christine Marie Reluya Cajeta are no longer a question but assumptions of my opponent and a demand that is no longer in line or in the context of my presentation which is again violation to the rules of this formal debate.

HERE END MY ANSWERS CROSS-EXAMINATIONION PART OF THIS FORMAL DEBATE. ( The negative objection was rendered no merit, with the moderators approval, the affirmative still have 1 more question to ask)

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AFFIRMATIVE QUESTION 15:

Ms. Moderator Christine Marie Reluya Cajeta and to Carl Cortez For my last Q15.

“WHO THEN ARE YOU TO QUESTION THEIR PRIVILEGE AS MANDATED BY THE GOVERNING AUTHORITIES PAUL CLEARLY HAVE SAID ARE ESTABLISHED BY GOD? IF THEY’LL AMEND AND USE THE ORDINANCE OF MALACHI 3:10 MANDATING ITS MEMBERS TO GIVE THEIR TITHES FOR THE CHURCH, WOULD THEN THAT A VIOLATION? NO! “

Above is an excerpt from his presentation.

Since the topic at hand is God’s mandate on 10%, not a Man”s mandate. And, in your presentation, you admitted that it can be amended or change and use the ordinance of Mal 3:10 to which was spoken by God himself. Moreover, when you answer my Q5 unto whom God mandated the 10%, you quoted these verses Numbers 18:20-24 and, part of the verse you mentioned says;

“Then the LORD said to Aaron: “You shall have no inheritance in their land, nor shall you have any portion among them; I am your portion and your inheritance among the children of Israel. “Behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tithes in Israel as an inheritance in return for the work which they perform, the work of the tabernacle of meeting.”Numbers‬ ‭18:20-21‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Therefore, THE LORD mandated the Levites to receive the 10% of Israel to which you are not.

My question is;

Who are you or who authorized you- a mere man to amend or change God’s mandate about the 10% so that you may receive it when you are not the one mandated by God to collect it?

I’m under the impression that the one who mandates has the only authority to amend it. God is the one who mandated the 10% not man but, you and the likes of you- a mere man had amended God’s mandate. So, who are you or authorized you to amend God’s mandate on 10%?

Explain!

_____________________________________________

NEGATIVE ANSWER TO QUESTION 15:

MY ANSWER TO QUESTION#15

Here is my opponent’s hypothesis he wanted to establish based on his personal opinion or “eisegesis” as basis for his question, and clearly not from my presentation or even the preposition title, he said ( refer to above question no. 15)

The QUESTION again is hypothetical one based on the assumptions and conclusions of my opponent where I never said in my presentation the statements he’s saying, but purely his personal opinion such as:

1. “Since the topic at hand is God’s mandate on 10%, not a Man’s mandate.”

Clarifications: The topic at hand as titled in my proposition is “BUT “The mandate of God with regards to giving 10% can still be done in today’s time – specifically in the church governance”.

2. “And, in your presentation, you admitted that it can be amended or change and use the ordinance of Mal 3:10 to which was spoken by God himself.”

Clarifications: In my presentation, I showed 3 forms of government where TITHE has been amended, before the law, as part of the law being institutionalized by Moses and has been called a decree, ordinance or statutes which legal terms by definition can be amended, and the present time as to be understood, that it’s God who establishes governments.

3. “Moreover, when you answer my Q5 unto whom God mandated the 10%, you quoted these verses Numbers 18:20-24 and, part of the verse you mentioned says;

“Then the LORD said to Aaron: “You shall have no inheritance in their land, nor shall you have any portion among them; I am your portion and your inheritance among the children of Israel. “Behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tithes in Israel as an inheritance in return for the work which they perform, the work of the tabernacle of meeting.”Numbers‬ ‭18:20-21‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Therefore, THE LORD mandated the Levites to receive the 10% of Israel to which you are not.”

Clarifications: Numbers 18:20-21 mentioned TITHE being a mandate to Aaron’s time which is not I belonged yet it was a decree, ordinance, statutes to be amended, considered as framework law.

SO, TO ANSWER AND DEAL PROPERLY MY OPPONENT’S PREMEDITATED HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION,

“Who are you or who authorized you- a mere man to amend or change God’s mandate about the 10% so that you may receive it when you are not the one mandated by God to collect it?”

HERE ARE MY ANSWERS:

GOD’S MANDATE ABOUT TITHES ISN’T AN AFFIXED LAW OR PART OF GOD’S COMMANDMENT THAT CANNOT BE AMENDED BUT IT WAS CHANGED OR HAS BEEN AMENDED SEVERAL TIMES.

The word MANDATE is a legal term which means:

1) an official order or commission to do something.

2) the authority to carry out a policy or course of action, regarded as given by the electorate to a candidate or party that is victorious in an election.

The word MANDATE was what the government itself is properly been using to execute approved law from official resolutions created by its authority.

It is then so clear by the given definition, MANDATE are official order, policy/ies, decrees, ordinance/s, statutes created by authority or officials. Never any policies, decrees, ordinance, statutes or an official order can become official if it is not being agreed upon by the authority or officials who created it.

So, to say GOD’s mandate, obviously includes people whom GOD has called out, to carry the task of executing the policy/ies, decrees, ordinance, statues produced as meeting the economic needs of his house and his servants, for that can only be called official which is being agreed officially and by the authority which should be understood clearly as God’s authority through his servants who amended and implemented it. Who amended, implemented, executed and institutionalized it? MOSES!

In viewing and analyzing the context of Numbers 18:20-24,

Were there words “God’s commandment” mentioned in the passages? NONE! This was clearly God’s instructions to the Israelites to use TITHE as to meet the needs of God’s house and his servants, the Levites, prior to their specific time under the theocracy form of government institutionalized by Moses.

The word AMEND again is also a legal term which means:

– make minor changes in (a text) in order to make it fairer, more accurate, or more up-to-date.

– modify formally, as a legal document or legislative bill.

– make better; improve.

Can the commandments of God which refers theologically to the 10 Commandments be amended, be changed, be modified or be improved by God himself or his servants? NO! They are called AFFIXED Law or FASTENED Law that can never be amended.

SO, what kind of God’s Law or instructions that can be amended? It’s not the FASTENED LAW but the FRAMEWORK LAW, such as God’s DECREES, ORDINANCES, or STATUTES.

If TORAH or LAW found in the Pentateuch (Five Books of Moses) were called the LAW of MOSES by scholars and theologians, would that be wrong? Definitely NOT!

TITHE law was INSTITUTIONALIZED by Moses of which he referred also the part of the Laws of God. So it should be understood that in the process of institutionalizing it and establishing it part of their culture and system, Moses, Aaron and others whom called the servants of God were part of strengthening it.

The very reason that should also be understood why TITHE law was called decree, ordinance or statutes which are legal terms subject to amendments by God’s people who will strengthen, establish and institutionalize it. MANDATE is the proper term to bring every amended decree, ordinance or statutes of God when executing or implementing it to God’s people.

CAN I MYSELF ALONE AMEND? NO! IT CANNOT BE DONE BY A SINGLE PERSON. IT’S AN INSTITUTION THAT CAN DO THAT JUST LIKE HOW MOSES INSTITUTIONALIZED TITHE WITH AARON AND OTHER LEADERS WHOM GOD HAS CHOSEN.

It’s CLEAR in my presentation I said “It should be understood and should not be taken so lightly, that GOD himself established GOVERNMENTS as the governing authorities as Paul emphasized it in his letter to the Romans that it existed and have been established by GOD.

“Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.” – Rom. 13:1-2

WHO ARE YOU THEN TO RESIST IT?

To read the format of the debate, click here

To read the presentations of the debaters, click here

To read the cross-examination of the Negative to Affirmative, click here

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3 Responses to TITHING DEBATE (AFFIRMATIVE CROSS EXAMINATIONS TO NEGATIVE SIDE) Part 3

  1. Pingback: TITHING DEBATE (NEGATIVE CROSS EXAMINATIONS TO AFFIRMATIVE SIDE) Part 4 | Bible Exposition (TINK)

  2. Pingback: TITHING DEBATE (THE FORMAT) Part 1 | Bible Exposition (TINK)

  3. Pingback: TITHING DEBATE (PRESENTATIONS) Part 2 | Bible Exposition (TINK)

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