TITHING DEBATE (PRESENTATIONS) Part 2

IMG_4244AFFIRMATIVE PRESENTATION (Surewin Saul)

Good Evening Ms. Moderator Christine Marie Reluya Cajeta and my beloved opponent Carl Cortez.

Below is my presentation:

In this presentation, I will prove that the mandate of God with regards to giving 10% cannot be done as commanded by God in the Bible in today’s time specifically, in the church governance.

Church governance is bound with the word of God. They should not impose rules within the church that breaks the mandate of God. Most churches who practice giving 10% claim that they are doing it as commanded by God?

But are they really?

Let’s examine:

Let us first define mandate as I don’t understand why my opponent wants this word:

One meaning of mandate is, an authoritative order or command.

See here: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/mandate

Therefore, mandating is actually commanding.

Now, let’s check if the mandate of God in regards to giving 10% as commanded in the bible is really being followed by most church governance. Then, let’s check if it can be done as commanded in today’s time.

What was the mandate of God with regards to giving 10% as commanded in the bible? I repeat, IN THE BIBLE to press on that the topic requires that the mandate or commandment was to be from the bible.

1.) Let’s check on WHAT was the tithable item as commanded in the bible.

All tenth-part gifts from the land, whether of seed from the ground or fruit from the trees, belong to the LORD; they are holy to the LORD. Leviticus 27:30 CEB

In the above verse, the Lord mandated that the tithe was to be of the seed from the ground or fruit from the tree, money was not in the option.

Remember, money was already available at that time. In fact, we read below;

“But if the journey is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, or if the place where the LORD your God chooses to put His name is too far from you, when the LORD your God has blessed you, then you shall exchange it for money, take the money in your hand, and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses. And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the LORD your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household.” Deuteronomy 14:24-26 NKJV

Though tithe can be converted to money due to distance, when they reach the place which the Lord has chosen, they shall spend that money not give the money for whatever their heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires.

Now, how is it different from last time to today’s time? Money was also available at that time but, under the commandment or mandate of God, it was not tithable. Does the church follow this?

But, at least this can still be followed since crops are still available.

2.) Now, let’s check on what God had mandated on to whom the tithe shall be given.

“Behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tithes in Israel as an inheritance in return for the work which they perform, the work of the tabernacle of meeting.” Numbers 18:21 NKJV

“And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham;” Hebrews 7:5 NKJV

In the above verse, it is clear that the tithe as commanded by God in the bible was to be received by the Levites.

Now, was there any other mandated or commanded tithe in the bible other than what was written under the law?

Q: Was Abraham commanded or mandated to tithe?

A: No commandment or mandate was mentioned in the bible? Take note, the topic requires giving 10% as commanded in the bible.

Q: Was Melchizedek commanded or mandated to collect tithe?

A: No commandment or mandate was mentioned in the bible also. Take note, the topic requires giving 10% as commanded in the bible.

Q: Where can we find the commandment or mandate to give 10%?

A: We can find it under the law apparently, in the mandate to give 10%, God also mandated it to be 1.) agricultural and 2.) was to be received by the Levites.

Q: Can it be done?

A: Number 1 can still be done because crops are still available to date.

Number 2, it cannot be done unless we bend the commandment because Levites were already changed.

“Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, of necessity, there is also a change of the law.” Hebrews 7:11-12 NKJV

So, since tithes as according to Numbers 18:21 was given in return for the work which they perform i.e burnt offering, peace offering, etc. And, this work is no more, it would follow that the 10% is also no more. Why would they still receive compensation when they were already changed to Jesus Christ, Him who is not bound with the Levitical priesthood Law since He came from Judah?

“For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood.” Hebrews 7:14 NKJV

Therefore, should you claim that you are a spiritual Levite hence, entitled to collect tithes, you then just affiliated yourself to those who are not entitled to it anymore.

So, are you giving 10% as commanded by God in the bible? Ask yourself, can it be done as commanded without breaking the mandate about it? Do you know any Levites? Obviously none.

Q: So, how can the commandment to give 10% be done without changing it forcefully or unknowingly?

A: It cannot be done.

Remember, ignorance of the law excuses no one and, giving 10% as commanded by God in the Bible in today’s time specifically in the church governance would cause only to transgress it and according to the verse below;

“Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.” 1 John 3:4 KJV

_______________________________________________

NEGATIVE PRESENTATION (Carl Cortez)

Good evening good moderator Christine Marie Reluya Cajeta, my opponent Surewin Saul and forum members. here is now my

MY NEGATIVE STATEMENT

To resolve that:

“The mandate of God with regards to giving 10% can still be done in today’s time – specifically in the church governance”

INTRODUCTION

“The hopes of a man void of understanding are vain and false:

and dreams lift up fools.” – Ecclesiasticus 34:1

UNDERSTANDING history including its government and language, are vital protective gears from the dangers of heresies and misrepresentation of its culture, governance, system, and way of living, and to corrupt, the essence of its importance should at all cost be guarded. To know exactly the truth will set anyone free from being slave to ignorance and arrogance.

Biblical history recounted the order and divulging the nature of TITHING on definite time it was implemented that should not to be understood as fastened or affixed law that can’t be changed prior to government system it belonged, BUT God mandated it in the heart of its purpose to provide the needs of his house and the people whom he had chosen as his servants that he separated from the “world” as we now know the “unbelievers” of the one God of Israel, that even to the present times it remains.

The system how the TITHE was implemented including the terminology used differed as time progressed but the mandate to TITHE in serving its main purpose of providing the needs of God’s house including its maintenance and beautification remains, much more in providing the needs of his servants who worked for him full time in the ministry.

It should be understood and should not be taken so lightly, that GOD himself established GOVERNMENTS as the governing authorities as Paul emphasized it in his letter to the Romans that it existed and have been established by GOD.

“Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.” – Rom. 13:1-2

WHO ARE YOU THEN TO RESIST IT?

I. UNDERSTANDING FORMS OF GOVERNMENT

GOD provided the GOVERNMENT in different forms from what Flavius Josephus called “theocracy” during the Old Testament times to the times of Christ under the Roman Government and to present which is the CHURCH bounded by the Democracy form of Government.

A. Theocracy

“The government of the Jews, however, was unique. Josephus offered the term “theocracy” to describe this polity, ordained by Moses, in which God is sovereign and his word is law.

According to the more modern definition, theocracy is “a system of government by sacerdotal order, claiming divine commission” (The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary on Historical Principles, vol. 2, 1939, p. 2166), a state in which priests exercise political power.”

– It was in this form of government “God rules” the early people of God were bound to, where the word “tax” wasn’t yet mentioned but equivalent to tithes and offering in later period.

* WAS THIS THE TYPE of government the church at present belonged to, including its way of living and economic system? Definitely NO! It was in this period of time GOD used TITHE principle imposing it to meet the needs of his house and his chosen servants doing the ministry such as the sons of Aaron and the Levites.

B. Roman Government (From Monarchy to Representation)

“The Roman Republic emerged out of what one historian called “the ashes of the monarchy.” Years underneath the unyielding yoke of a king taught the people of Rome that they had to safeguard against the rule, and possible oppression, of one individual. The real authority or imperium of the republic, and later empire was to be divided among three basic elements – elected non-hereditary magistrates, a Senate to advise and consent, and popular assemblies.”

– It was in this form of government Christ came where the Jews were subjected to, that the “tax” was common collecting specifically farmers. It was in this period of time tax as equivalent to 10% or tithe introduced and been implemented related to “tithe and offering” obligation rendered in the Old Testament.

* JESUS never broke the law of the governing authorities but he subjected himself to it.

C. Democracy Government

“- is a country, a system of government in which people choose their rulers by voting for them in elections; a system of running organizations, businesses, and groups in which each member is entitled to vote and take part in decisions.”

2. UNDERSTANDING ECONOMIC SYSTEM OF EACH GOVERNMENT

“Giving a portion of one’s profit or the spoils of war was known in the ancient world from Greece to China. Gifts were made as religious offerings, or given to political authority as tribute or tax. Religious and political uses often combined since it was common to associate earthly and divine authority. Donation of a tenth portion, or tithe, was common apparently because most peoples counted in tens, based on ten fingers.” –

“Under the judges, according to the theocratic government contemplated by the law, the only payments incumbent upon the people as of permanent obligation were the Tithes, the Firstfruits, the Redemption-money of the first-born, and other offerings as belonging to special occasions.

The payment by each Israelite of the half-shekel as “atonement-money,” for the service of the tabernacle, on taking the census of the people, ( Exodus 30:13 ) does not appear to have had the character of a recurring tax, but to have been supplementary to the freewill offerings of ( Exodus 25:1-7 ) levied for the one purpose of the construction of the sacred tent.

In later times, indeed, after the return from Babylon, there was an annual payment for maintaining the fabric and services of the temple; but the fact that this begins by of a shekel, (Nehemiah 10:32) shows that till then there was no such payment recognized as necessary.

A little later the third became a half, and under the name of the didrachma, ( Matthew 17:24 ) was paid by every Jew, in whatever part of the world he might be living.” – Smith’s Bible Dictionary – Taxes

C. UNDERSTANDING GOVERNANCE AND LEADERSHIP

The word “governance” came from the Latin verb “gubernare,” or more originally from the Greek word “kubernaein,” which means “to steer.” Basing on its etymology, governance refers to the manner of steering or governing, or of directing and controlling, a group of people or a state. Governance is traditionally associated with government. In literatures, they are often used interchangeably. – (Law, Politics & Philosophy)

Leadership is the action of leading a group of people or an organization by its leaders. Leadership is an important function of management which helps to maximize efficiency and to achieve group or church goals. In fact, leadership is an essential part and a crucial component of effective management.

Adam, Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, Moses, the prophets, and Jesus were an example of leaders in the Bible who led people. They weren’t self- confessed or self-appointed leaders but been called to leadership, ordained and anointed by God.

These leaders never abandoned the house of God, disrespect and failed to gave tribute to men of God as leaders in the ministry of God’s house but showed great examples of being faithful and obedient to God’s law even giving importance to tithes and offering as tax in the modern times.

CONCLUSION:

By understanding the difference between the former and the latter times as how GOD worked executing his plans in restoring people bringing them back to him, from earthly promise to eternity, from literal to spiritual, we then can conclude and see it clearly that never he broke any of his promises even the laws he created for the benefit of man.

So with how he worked in history and judging everyone by their attitude of subjecting themselves or not to the governing authorities as Paul has clearly emphasized in Roman 3:2 that “The authorities that exist have been established by God”, God is still at his best working faithfully in visiting the man.

In here I conclude based on Biblical historical accounts written in the scriptures, disclosed by scholars and historians, emphasizing the subject of this proposition about TITHES, said to be “was common apparently because most peoples counted in tens, based on ten fingers” in the past, I strongly have proven, that in passing various forms of government, GOD has mandated 10%.

This mandate served for the general purpose of providing the needs of his house and of his chosen servants. This fact remains today or has still been mandated today by the government he established and from the people whom he had chosen to care and serve in his house, the church at present.

Legitimate religious institutions today or the Church with Juridical personality under the LAW of the government, given the privilege to impose and mandate its constituents to obey their by-LAWS created especially as to progress their goals even their ideals and to sustain their economics needs mandating financial obligations among its members.

WHO THEN ARE YOU TO QUESTION THEIR PRIVILEGE AS MANDATED BY THE GOVERNING AUTHORITIES PAUL CLEARLY HAVE SAID ARE ESTABLISHED BY GOD? IF THEY’LL AMEND AND USE THE ORDINANCE OF MALACHI 3:10 MANDATING ITS MEMBERS TO GIVE THEIR TITHES FOR THE CHURCH, WOULD THEN THAT A VIOLATION? NO!

THE CHURCH IS THE HOUSE OF GOD, AND SERVANTS OF GOD WHO WORKED IN THE CHURCH FULL TIME PREACHING THE GOSPEL SHALL LIVE BY THE GOSPEL, HAVE THE AUTHORITY AND RIGHTS FOR IT. 1 Cor. 9:14; 2 Thess. 3:6-10

If your self-made church which is you as you might have claimed, subjected not to the governing authorities of the land God himself had established, having no JURIDICAL PERSONALITY or LEGAL ENTITY, then you have violated the LAW. You transgressed the LAW!

Ignorance of the LAW excuses no one!

—————————– e n d ———————————-

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To read the format of the debate, click here

To read the cross examinations of Affirmative to Negative, click here

To read the cross examination of the Negative to Affirmative, click here

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3 Responses to TITHING DEBATE (PRESENTATIONS) Part 2

  1. Pingback: TITHING DEBATE (NEGATIVE CROSS EXAMINATIONS TO AFFIRMATIVE SIDE) Part 4 | Bible Exposition (TINK)

  2. Pingback: TITHING DEBATE (THE FORMAT) Part 1 | Bible Exposition (TINK)

  3. Pingback: TITHING DEBATE (AFFIRMATIVE CROSS EXAMINATIONS TO NEGATIVE SIDE) Part 3 | Bible Exposition (TINK)

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